tenplay the living room

ted chapin: with radio golf (ph), the finalwork in august wilson's ten play cycle on african-american life now on broadway, wewanna mark that milestone achievement by looking at the work of this singular voice in theamerican theater, which was silenced all too soon. i'm ted chapin (ph) for the american theatrewing. later in the program we'll be joined by actorsdiscussing the complex characters created by wilson. but we'll start with a group of artists andproducers who have played key roles in bringing august wilson's work to the stage.

we are joined by jim houghton, artistic directorof the signature theater company (ph), which produced three of wilson's plays this season. todd kreidler, august wilson's longtime dramaturg(ph). kenny leon, director of the broadway productionsof radio golf and gem of the ocean. ruben santiago hudson, a tony winner for hisrole in seven guitars, and director of that play's revival this year at the signaturetheater. and jack viertel of jujamcyn theaters (ph),the lead producer of radio golf. welcome gentlemen. jack viertel: thank you.

todd kreidler: thank you. ted chapin:i never met august wilson, but i thought we'd start the conversation by asking--i think jack, you knew him longer-- than anybody here. what was he like? jack viertel: i-- if i did (noise) know him you know, i-- i-- my relationship with augustbegan with me writing him a letter. and it continued (noise) with my writing himletters for many years as we produced-- jujamcyn produced the last six of-- of the plays inthe cycle.

he rarely-- actually answeredthe letters. what would happen is i would-- (laughter)i would meet him for coffee at the-- at the polish tearoom (ph), the-- the coffee shopat the edison hotel (ph). and somehow he would answer the letters withoutanswering the letters. the great thing about august,who was a wonderful raconteur and storyteller is-- he would lead you a dance and do with--apparently complete innocence. and tell you the story of his new play, thatwasn't written yet, which might or might not turn out to be the story of his new play thatwasn't written yet. (laughter) and respond to the different thingsthat i had said to him in a letter or personally

without ever directly answering a question. he was a wonderfully entertaining-- coffeecompanion, but it's also true that-- he was completely committed and passionate aboutwhat he was doing, and could be-- you know, fiercely independent about what-- how he wantedto do it, which might or might not be the way that broadway would typically do something. so, there was this interesting-- and in theend-- kind of slightly unknowable combination of a wonderfully entertaining friend and raconteur,and a deeply private, i think passionate man, who-- was on-- was on a mission. he was on a mission like a heavy weight boxeris on a mission to-- you know, go all 15 rounds.

it was a fascinating experience. ted chapin: ruben, is that-- is that the manyou knew? ruben santiago hudson:exa-- well-- you know, i-- i think he had so many sides to him. y-- but of-- of course, he was extremely passionate. but-- when i first august, it felt like it--w-- i met him when i saw-- ma rainey's black bottom (ph)-- i think it was '84. when i walked in that theater,i felt i had met him, because he w-- he was-- he spoke directly to my heart.

and those words leaped outta those actor'smouths, off the stage, into my heart. and i just said, "who-- whoever's creatinthis, i need some of it. i need to be a part of it." and-- and i-- and i pursued him--as jack's-- jack was sayin-- i wro-- i left a letter. he didn't-- return it, but i-- (laughter)i ran into him at an audition. and-- immediately he wrote a note down, whichhe showed me-- several years later-- it was an audition for two trains runnin. and-- i didn't get the role.

and lawrence fishburn (ph) went on to wina tony. (laughter) but august wrote a note-- augustwrote a note-- you know, same music that i have-- same-- sam-- he pl-- playin the samesong. and then when seven guitars came up, i wentand-- (noise) played that song again for him. and-- and that was my tony. [onstage dialogue for seven guitars] ted chapin: todd, you-- you worked forhim for a number of years, yeah? todd krediler:we met in 1999 in pittsburgh, when we were doing the-- world premier of king hedley, the second.

and-- i got invited into one of those conversations,and it-- carried for-- you know, until the end-- for seven years. and-- that's how it started, it was just conversations. we were outside of rehearsal break,and the cast went up into the room, unbeknownst to us. and then they came back, and then they said,"are you guys comin back up to rehearsal?" and we found out two and a half hours hadpassed. and-- in that two and a half hours, we weresomehow beginning a relationship that-- (noise) you know, worked it's way through-- you know--"yeah, todd, i need ta put this speech in the play.

you find a place for it." you know? and so, we began this back and forth. and-- as jack was shared, he wasalways alive with these stories, and was always working. and-- if he would see us together-- as itcame back to him-- and he said, "you have the best job in the world. you hang out with august wilson." i thought, "well, it is the best job in theworld. but-- you see we're hanging out, in the meanwhilewe're like-- working on-- you know-- you know,

a film idea. and then we have this over here. and then there's-- you know, there's politics. there's-- you know, paul hamm (ph) in theolympics, and-- you know, that issue." i mean, there's all these things happeningat the same time, and he was always working. every waking minute he was working-- and training,and preparing for-- (noise) you know, what culminates with radio golf. ted chapin:there's a wonderful line in the second act of-- radio golf about-- rules changing,and having to change with the rules.

and i-- i g-- is that-- does that kind ofgo for-- for the way august wrote? that he would-- because he was not a trainedr-- playwright, and sort of prided himself, i believe, on being-- on-- on sort of comingin it just-- you know, from-- from nothing. did-- kenny, as-- as-- as a director of--of his works-- d-- do you find-- are there rules that he made and then broke or did hejust write 'em-- as he went along? kenny leon:i don't know. i think that he was always-- (noise) in searchof the truth. i mean-- i think these guys probably knewaugust better than i did. but i feel like i only reallygot to (noise) meet him-- truly after he passed

away. i mean, of course, i-- i-- i knew him. and-- so-- met him in 1987-- at a productionof fences. and-- he's always been a man of--(noise) of loyalty, and-- principle, and-- in many ways, that's what radio golf is about. it's like-- what's right and what's wrong? and-- even if you didn't agree with him, hehad his right and wrong. and in-- 1988, when i became associateartistic director of the alliance theater in atlanta, he gave me the rights to do joeturner's come and gone.

and every year after that, he gave me therights to whatever play he had finished writing-- even if it was running on broadway. and he would always come down and spend timein the previews and opening, and help me with the plays. and-- i felt him to be extremely-- a complexman-- determined to say something that meant something, determined to really carry the loadfor-- americans, and african-americans specifically. and i think that-- we, as americans, owe agreat deal-- to him for that-- for that weight that he-- he carried.

and he's-- certainly left a lot a work forall of us directors-- and actors to do, and we thank him for that. but-- i find out that after working with radiogolf (noise) on the last four months of his life-- i find that i really only sorta-- j--had just begun to really understand him. and i think i understand him better now thani did when he was alive. and certainly we had a-- lotta good timestogether. and-- but-- i don't even know what you askedme, but-- (laughter) (overtalk) ruben santiago hudson: you actually mentioned rules. when you talk about rules-- i think augustmade rules.

kenny leon: yes. ruben santiago hudson:he made his rules. his-- i think the one rule that he adheredmore than anything was the integrity of his people-- the humanity of his people, whichis the hardest thing-- of black people in this country in arts. very rarely do you get to see the humanityof us. the-- the-- this is the thingthat august was impeccable at. i mean, he-- everybody-- no matter what levelthey were on that-- on that-- on that-- on-- on-- in life, their humanity, their integritywas-- and that's what drew me so muc-- i said,

"why i don't get to see this?" i don't-- as an actor, i don't get to-- getto play those roles. 00:09:25:00 it-- on the-- on the paper-- it'snot on the paper. i have to bring that to it. but with august, it's on the paper, becausehe loves these people. and when i see productions andi don't see the love in the production, and i-- i-- s-- wanna stop and say-- i wanna knockon somebody's door and say-- "you guys love each other. you might not like each other right now.

you might not like each other all the time,but you do love each other, and this is a community." and i think that's very important-- when yousee and witness his work-- that you feel the love of these people. jack viertel:it's interesting that you say that, because-- i think one of the way greatthings about that fact of the way august wrote is that he writes the most fantastic villainsof the piece. you know, the villain of the piece is neverjust a villain. and you play-- maybe the greatest of all thevillains--

ruben santiago hudson: caesar-- jack viertel:caesar wilks (ph) in-- in gem of the ocean. but-- james williams (ph), who is playingroosevelt hicks (ph), who is kind of the villain of the piece in radio golf-- it's a fascinatingcharacter. it's not just a bad guy. you know, there is no thing as just a badguy in august's works-- ruben santiago hudson:because of the humanity of the character. jack viertel: because you see where they came from, and how they got to be who they got to be. and the failings, and the inability to getover the top to actually be a better person

is a tragedy for them too. ruben santiago hudson: because they're all redeemable. august said that to me when he said-- "everybody in this play is redeemable. they're capable of being anything that youwant-- want 'em to be." so-- and-- and when i did caesar-- augustand i-- you know, we discussed it a lot. and i said, "august," i said,"i don't care if people like me. i want them to understand me." and so, that was the way i set out to be understood--not necessarily be liked.

i didn't need people to like me. caesar didn't need people to like him. but he needed to be understood. so, that's what i sought in the clarity of--of-- of-- of the characterization of-- of-- of caesar. ted chapin:but actors tend to-- wanna be liked on stage. ruben santiago-hudson: no, that doesn't phase me at all. be understood-- ruben santiago hudson:you know? truth.

kenny mentioned that. lemme be the trut-- truth of this character. forget about what ruben wants. what does caesar want, and why? and if you-- if you know august, you knowthat he had some integrity. i'm talking about that character-- and eachcharacter (noise) has some integrity. ted chapin:what-- what-- what-- was he an angry man? ruben santiago hudson:every black man in america should

be angry about somethin. (laughter) i mean, yesterday i was walkindown the village, dressed up as i could be, and a lady-- walked straight up to me andsaid-- looked at a car that was sittin there and said-- "where's this car going?" and i said, "ma'am, i don't know." she said, "you're not the chauffer?" i'm dressed up-- why-- why did she-- (laughter)every black man that's comin here has somethin to be angry about at some time. you know?

so-- far as i know-- you know-- i-- i don'tthink he was bitter by any means. but i thought he had some anger. i think we all do. todd kreidler:well, august also had an expectation for justice, which is throughout all of theplays. and i think that the world and america constantlydisappointed him-- but in sped-- instead of turning that disappointment to cynicism, heused it as fuel (noise) to-- address it in his work, and-- and put these issues on stage. and-- and-- and again, as ruben said, puta full culture that-- is not somehow insufficient

or-- it's somehow less than-- you know, thedominant-- you know, white-- you know-- largely western european culture. so, you wanna say, "no, everything you needto live is in my culture, too. and in-- you know, we play it different and--you know, we have a different song, but everything you need is within this culture." and he raised it and put it on stage. [onstage dialogue from fences] ted chapin: jim, did you work with him-- when he was alive? or did you--

jim houghton: oh, yes. we met-- (noise) i had just taken over theo'neil-- playwright's conference-- after lloyd richards (ph). and i followed lloyd to last year, and then--that was in '99, and in 2000, i too wrote a-- letter to august. (laughter)ruben santiago hudson: he's got a lotta letters somewhere. jim houghton: yes he does. ted chapin:did you get an answer? jim houghton:i did actually get an answer.

ruben santiago hudson:oh, man. jim houghton: but i didn't get the answer. the o'neill got the answer, i think. i-- i wrote him a letter saying--'cause it had been years since he had been there-- that this was a home for him, andif he ever wanted to return-- the invitation was an open one. and in fact, we-- he actually didn't-- writeme back, but he called me. and he said, (noise) "i'm coming. i'll be there."

and-- literally-- you know, a few days later,and-- and suddenly he was at the o'neill. and-- it was a wonderful time there. he-- he wanted to go back to the o'neill,because he was really struggling to finish gem of the ocean. and he-- i think on some level thought, "ifi go back to the place where all those other places-- plays were born-- maybe-- you know,the-- the magic will happen, and i'll be able to write." which in fact-- (noise) the--sort of a fun story. we would gather-- i-- i think it was onceor twice a week at the o'neill, and we'd share--

(noise) various material or we'd have a communitymeeting or something. and so, once in a while, when there was awriter in residence, i would ask if they wanna read something. so, august said he would read-- from gem. and we-- i think we had a couple hours putaside to do this-- and so, of course, it was wonderful. he sat down, and he's reading the play, and--and he gets to a certain point-- which was the end of act one, as it turned out-- andhe-- (noise) turns the-- the binder over. and he says, "i think that's enough."

and-- and the place goes wild. they loved it. (laughter) and-- and then he whispers to me,"that's all i had." (laughter) so-- you know-- he-- milked itfor all he could get. he was so-- generous at the o'neill. and in-- in fact, as it turned out, i don'tthink he was able to write a-- a single word while he was there. but i think what it did do was-- reengagehim with that sort of spirit that was alive at the o'neill and-- is still at the l-- aliveat the o'neill.

but he was so generous with the entire communitythere. and-- reflecting on all the things that havebeen said about him-- the faith in humanity, the faith in the human condition, and thesensitivity to all people-- his generosity with the young-- in-- interns to-- to thesenior artists who were present-- just-- very giving. and it was there when we started talking abouta season-- together. and the initial thought was there was no reasonto do a season, because-- all of his work had presented-- you know, in the stages ofnew-- york, on a broadway stage. and-- within about an hour, ithad become clear that we were gonna do a season.

so-- because we both said, "no, it doesn'tmake any sense." and-- as the people have eluded to-- you know,with august, you sat down with him, and-- you pushed the wor-- you know, pushed go,and it was three hours later-- you had been through a whole myriad of-- of-- of topicsand generally about three or four plays that he had in his head, and ideas. and-- so, we had gone in that--initial meeting together, from not having a season to having a season of all new workthat was gonna be post the 20th cycle. and-- that was about-- six years ago now. so-- we worked together on and off, tryingto discover what that season would be.

(noise) and through his struggles to get gemof the ocean finished-- and then ultimately radio golf-- we delayed slightly then-- to--finish those. and then obviously, he fell ill, and the seasonchanged. ted chapin: am i right in saying thathe didn't-- necessarily start out to write the ten play cycle? but he wrote jitney (ph) first, i think, andthen ma rainey. and-- it was ma rainey the one that-- that--then-- then he started ta-- ta-- sort of plug in the pieces. 'cause they were not written in chronologicalorder, correct?

kenny leon:todd knows the answer to that. todd kreidler: yeah. he discovered it. i mean, he discovered it en route. so, he had written jitney, and he had a play,fullerton street (ph). and then ma rainey, and then fences, and thenwhen he hit joe turner is when he said, "wait a minute. i have each of these plays that sit in a different--decade. why don't i create a larger-- project formyself, and larger cloth-- where i can always know what the next play is?" (laughter) so, it-- in a way,it gave him-- not only an ambition, but it

also helped keep him going. so, for instance-- you know, as soon as hefinished king hedley, the second-- fact, the morning after the broadway opening, we metat what was once the java shop (ph) on-- i think 42nd and broadway or 46th, and thatwas the spot. we always met at the spot. hey, man, meet me at the spot. and-- so, that was our spot. and that morning i remember he had a notecard. and he put it down and it said-- you know,sully two kings (ph)-- you know, caesar wilks

and black mary (ph)-- all the characters forgem of the ocean, which he was already-- working on the next play. so, it was like-- he just hadhis broadway opening. and-- you know, we had great notices, andhis mind is already on to the next play. so, it-- it-- it again-- it-- was somethingthat-- it-- it would-- it would-- it came out of his exploration. but he purposefully held out doing the 1904play and the 1997 play. so, there is-- you know, there'sa genealogical connection to the plays. and i think now-- as we're even beginningto discover-- when you have these final two

plays, you can look at all the rest of themin a different way. i mean, they shed different-- --values in life-- on-- on each of the-- each of the plays. jack viertel:i had an interesting conversation with him right after two trains running opened,which i guess was the fifth written-- something like that. kenny leon:i think so-- yeah. jack viertel:at the edison-- our coffee shop.

(noise) and-- he said to me, "i've been thinkinga lot about tennessee williams (ph)." and i could not picture him as someone whowould read tennessee williams-- necessarily. and i said, "really? why?" and he said, "well-- you know, he got intothis-- (noise) place-- sort of in his late plays, where they didn't really succeed. and i've got these five plays i've still gottawrite. (laughter) i'm trying to figure out-- hownot to do what tennessee williams did." he said, "because he's a great artist-- agreat, great artist who somehow-- went off the rails at a certain point in terms of a--connecting with his audience."

and he said, "and i can't do that. i've gotta figure out how to write five moreof these plays without that happening to me." he said, "i don't know how i'm gonna do it." (noise) but he kinda did it. ruben santiago hudson:i-- i have a-- i have a question. how-- how-- how do the folks here on thispanel feel about-- (noise) what august has-- has done and how it will affect the-- the--the playwrights that are coming behind him. will it affect 'em? will it open the door for these other youngplaywrights?

is it that-- now that august is--is-- is not here with us physically-- now-- now what happens to those coming behind? did he open that door? is that door down on broadway for us now? is it open? you know-- what do you think? what do-- what do you guys think about that? jack viertel:i think the broadway door is what it has been for a long time-- and i'm not--i can't say i'm proud of it or happy about

it-- which is-- by and large, things cometo broadway, because there's a commercial reason to bring them here. and broadway's-- ruben santiago hudson: yeah. jack viertel: --broadway's become a showcaserather than a generator of productions. and the great thing that happened to augustmight not happen again so easily, which is that-- in a slightly earlier time, he becamefamous in a way. and the fame of who he was, and what he wasdoing, and what he was trying to accomplish made things like producing gem of the oceanand radio golf on broadway inevitable.

i think for someone writing a play like marainey's black bottom today-- a first play by a young playwright-- it's gonna be hardto get that play on broadway, because we're not doing a very good job on broadway of--finding an economic-- a business model that will allow that to happen-- ruben santiago hudson: but there's a tremendous life off-broadway and in the regions-- jack viertel: tremendous. and that i think we-- he-- i think he's done a huge amount. and among other things-- a tremendous actingpool has been created, and directing pool will be created around african-american theater,because these plays exist. there's ten-- ten plays is a lot a plays.

kenny leon: and i think that-- one thing that august has already done is open the doorsfor playwrights all over the country. you know-- were it not for august wilson--you know, cheryl west (ph), regina taylor (ph)-- all the-- akeea cothrin (ph)-- theywould have opportunities to write for the regional theaters. and august always said-- "you know, we're--we're owed the work. we're not owed anything else." and-- sometimes we get caughtup in understanding what the rewards are. it's like-- people are all over the country.

and-- there are many millions to get the workout there, and-- we just got to continue to work on broadway. i mean, i look at what's happeningon broadway this year. and not only-- the-- the-- nonexistence ofafrican-american writers, but-- you know, american writers. (laughter) and more british than-- beforethe black-- ruben santiago hudson:right. but-- you can bring an unknown play with-- without one visible star from london, and put it on broadway.

but yet we fight and struggle to put augustwilson up. and for me-- you know, now that i've-- i'veput myself in the-- in-- in-- in-- as a writer and a director-- so i can hopefully make achange somehow-- it's like-- it's-- some time it's baffling to me. i'm sayin-- you know, they say,"we don't have a star in that august wilson play. we can't bring 'em life." it's august wilson. the star is august wilson. and people-- sometime-- they getmixed up about who is the star?

even when we did gem of the ocean-- and ididn't care anything about my name above the title. i thought august's should be, and all of usshould be under. but when one person goes, the other says,"well, put me too." (laughter) but august is the star. people come, because of that name. because a-- because-- the-- the beauty, inthe music, and the lyrical sweep of that work-- the history there-- that is the star-- the work. but they are bringing somethin that nobody--you know, play-- i never heard a the play, never heard a the guy, but i don't know it--all the plays.

but they'll put it up and let it run. when we closed seven guitars, ideal husband ran beyond us. and i know our numbers were much strongerthan them, and they ran three or four months past us. ted chapin:what-- why was it important for august (noise) to be on broadway? i know jitney was the only one of the cyclethat was not on-- done-- it was on new york on the-- s-- second stage. but-- the-- and part of the reason that--i asked the question is 'cause-- is-- clearly,

he was minding the african-american worldin this country, and in this-- in this cycle-- but i wondered-- w-- it-- did he wanna playthose for a mixed audience, a white audience, a black audience? did he wanna find new audiences for the theater? or did he just wanna-- wanna-- jack viertel: i (noise) think all of the above. but i also think for august, (noise) it was--o-- we-- we-- we talked about this a little bit. for better or worse, broadway was the powercenter of the american theater, and he felt that it was important-- not just for him personally--for his personal gratification-- but that it was important in a larger sense for anafrican-american writer who had been recognized

as a playwright-- to be on broadway, to bewhere other recognized playwrights were-- american playwrights were. if arthur miller was there, andtennessee williams was there, and david manna (ph) was there, then august wilson shouldbe there. and i think that he drove to that center--very hard. he wanted those plays done on broadway, andhe was very clear about that. i think it had to do with-- there'sa great speech in-- in-- in radio golf about-- you know, you try to get the center, and youfind out you're back out on the edge. (noise) it had to do with being in the center,not the edge.

the center may not be the healthiest placeeconomically for a play to be, but it is the center. todd kreidler: right. and-- and-- forthe record, his audience was one. i mean, he wrote for himself first and foremost. i mean-- that's what drove him. when nobody cared what he was writing whenhe was-- you know, at esteban's (ph) in saint paul (ph), and he was scribbling-- however. i mean, that's who he always wrote for. so, he never-- that an-- thatquestion was baffling to him.

i mean-- but i think jack answered it wellthat it's-- as you said, broadway is the national theater. so, that's-- that's our guide star. ruben santiago hudson: but e-- even though he wrote forhim-- the-- you-- the light in his eyes when he start tellin it to you-- (laughter) you know, we let-- oh, you-- you know, buthe wrote for him, but he shared wit all. todd kreidler: absolutely. ruben santiago hudson:and-- and it's funny, because-- somebody else asked me about why was august--you know, he's-- was a hard man. he was a-- i said, "august brought more peopleof different colors together (laughter) than

anybody i've seen." you know, it's like-- if you look at the peoplethat surrounded him and foundation of-- of-- of his work-- i mean, it's-- it's-- it's anincredible mosaic. and-- and-- and that's all you have to dois look around-- at the people involved in his work, and you'll see the impact of august wilson. ted chapin:anybody wanna venture a guess as to which one of the cycles-- which oneof the plays (noise) in the cycle might end up being-- the-- the-- best single play? ted chapin: it's-- well, the reason that i--

part of the reason i asked is 'cause somebodymentioned joe turner as being the-- the-- the play that wasn't appreciated-- or thataugust may have felt the production didn't-- didn't-- reach his expectations. sort of-- that's the one to keep an eye. and i don't know if that's a figment of somebody's imagination. todd kreidler: well--it-- it wasn't-- it wasn't the pr-- i-- he never said anything about (noise)the production. he said that joe turner was his favorite--play at the time. and then gem of the ocean started to comparewith that--

ruben santiago hudson:i-- i think gem of the ocean opened up a whole-- direct africa connection andspirituality that people really were afraid of at joe turner. it's the same-- it's that goin back-- it'sthat africaness in us. and now that gem has been here, i think peopleare op-- i-- i just-- i just feel that they're open more that now-- now they can-- relatemore to joe turner. i think people didn't know whatto do with joe turner. he was (noise) so spiritual and he was soafrican. and-- and-- and not until gem did they really--ah-- there we are.

so, i think it's-- it's real fertileright now. and-- and i think-- there's a need and a hungerfor august's work. and-- and we have to somehow fulfill that--not only as artists, but as producers, and as audience members. it's a need and-- and-- and (noise) it's ahunger for it. ted chapin:and jim, you found audiences this year, did you not-- for the signature season? jim houghton:oh, yeah. i-- i think what ruben was just alluding tois really context.

the more plays, the more context we have tounderstand and accept-- and relate to joe turner. i mean, it's a-- i-- i-- i find every playto be just a rich, rich experience for-- different reasons. kenny leon: that's the thing. i mean, i agree with ruben. i mean, it's there, but all 10 plays are uniqueand special in themselves. it's like your 10 children. and it's like radio golf cannotbe joe turner. joe turner cannot be two trains. they are all different, but they are fromthe same heart, the same voice.

ruben santiago hudson:and they feed a need to wanna see the next one. oh, i gotta-- now-- i gotta go see-- (laughter)you know, now-- for s-- some reason, i've been wantin to see a-- a piano lesson recently. i just been wanting to-- but i just have allthe scripts always handy. and i'll grab 'em, i start reading. but one thing feeds something else, and youwant more, and more, more. jack viertel:and radio golf is the-- is-- so modern and contemporary and different fromany of the others. it's an-- it's-- it's like a shock to thesystem when you see it.

very funny and right there, and-- i-- youknow-- a-- totally different kind of characters than the characters he's written in the past. kenny leon: first one he's dealing with themiddle class. you know? and-- he had caesar wilks, and now has-- (laughter)you know-- ruben santiago hudson:descendants of caesar-- kenny leon:(laughter) descendants of caesar. and that is exciting and great to-- look atthat. jack viertel:and i think he loved that challenge. he said, "do you think i write this kind aplay?"

wait a-- just wa-- you stay here. wait a minute. i'll be right back with another one. (laughter) you know? it's completely different. ted chapin:yeah. and-- and in radio golf, mining the-- thevarious aspects of the middle class, and the spectrum (noise) of the middle classes-- that--that-- is-- is-- i mean, that's an extraordinary thing to-- to go out on. it's like-- okay, here's the middle-- here'sthe-- an african-american middle class, and there's this and there's that.

so-- watch them-- you know, watch them play--play with each other. kenny leon:and what was amazing-- you know, i-- i-- i was blessed to have worked on thebookends-- gem of the ocean and radio golf. but-- in gem of the ocean-- when we came throughthat door-- you have a man coming through the door as an-- a individual, and he leaves the--that-- that play-- part of a full community. flash forward to 1997-- okay, you got economics,you've got money, you can do almost anything you want. but what about the community? what about your tie to the whole? you know? so, you can really look at gem of the oceanand look at radio golf and say, "wow."

i mean, the man was brilliant. ted chapin:well, we could go on all-- all-- all afternoon, but i would like to thank youall very much for-- for being here. we'll be back in a moment with part two ofour show, after a few words about the work of the american theatre wing. ted chapin:that was playwright august wilson, at a 1987 american theatre wing seminar, describinghow his work changed and grew as it came to life on stage. now with us are four actors, who made indelibleimpressions in work by august wilson.

stephan mckinley henderson, who created rolesin jitney and king hedley, the second, and appeared in the revival of ma rainey's black bottom. harry lenox (ph), of radio golf, who alsoplayed the title role in king hedley, the second at the mark taper forum (ph). tonya pinkins (ph), who's performed-- in numerousproductions of the piano lesson, and the current production of radio golf on broadway. phylicia rashad, who created the pivotal ofaunt esther (ph) in gem of the ocean, and recently directed that play at the seattlerep (ph). and we're joined once again with directorkenny leon.

now stephen, i wanted to start. i heard you say something the we're doingthis on an-- on a rather auspicious day. stephen mckinley henderson:00:32:15:00 oh, well, yeah-- i-- i look for all the synchronicities-- you know, of allthe signs. and-- because it's arbor day-- i was at bryantpark (ph) earlier today, and-- they were commenting that it was arbor day. and i thought because of the trees, and theroots, and the-- you know, blooming and that-- and then also because-- this week-- mondaybegan with-- shakespeare's birthday, and-- and-- friday, the work week ends with-- august'sbirthday.

so, i ju-- you know, it is-- it is auspicious. but-- it's an auspicious occasion indeed. ted chapin:00:32:44:00 so, i-- i wanted to-- i wanted to-- to start with phylicia, 'cause you--you created a-- a-- rather pivotal role in-- in gem of the ocean. what was it like creating a role like thatwith august wilson there for you? phylicia rashad:it-- it was-- hoo-- i don't know the words to describe this experience. it was unlike anything-- i've ever known.

the role itself is unlike any other role in--th-- theater-- that i know of. i don't know of another role like aunt esther. i don't know of another-- person who embodieseverything (noise) that she holds-- and who lives with such purpose, the way she does. 00:33:32:00 i've never heard of such thing. but to be there with him-- he was silent mostof the time. and he didn't say much to me-- except once--he corrected a gesture. (noise) 00:33:45:00 there was something i had donethat i thought was-- okay to do.

it was-- l-- leaning on a chair like this,listening to citizen (ph). and he said, "that's too modern. she wouldn't sit like that." and i thought about it, then i thought aboutthe way dressed, and the way wh-- the women worked, and the way the women were with theirbodies. and-- i said, "that's right. and that was the one thing that he-- thathe-- said directly to me. kenny leon:he talked about your singin. phylicia rashad:he didn't talk about it to me.

kenny leon:oh. (laughter) phylicia rashad: well, what did he say? i wanna know-- what did he say? kenny leon: well-- it was just a-- it-- it--we were dealing with 1904, and he didn't want it to-- to sound like a specific religion. phylicia rashad:right. kenny leon:he wanted it to sound older than-- than-- than organized american religion. so, he kept wanting to get that kinda olderfeel to it. i guess i was the one that kept saying to youto put that layer on there.

and-- of course, you did, and he was happy. phylicia rashad:hmm. (laughter)kenny leon: but i thought he said to you,but-- you know, august always said-- you know, there should be one person that talks to the actor. phylicia rashad:yeah. kenny leon:and he said-- you should be the person to talk to the actor. so, he never would like-- run around and givean actor a note. he would talk to an actor about stories andstuff like that, but he was always respectful

he always wanted a director tocome to the table-- with your tools. come as a director. you know? (noise) he always wanted that. if you were a costume designer--design the clothes. (laughter) come to work-- work as hard as--(noise) he does on the plays. ted chapin: d-- harry, you're-- and tonya,you're-- you're in-- in performance as we speak on-- on broadway in-- in-- in radio golf. and they're wonderfully, clearly delineatedparts. what was it like-- i mean, this is-- thisis the last of the 10 play cycles.

and it's the one that takes place in the mostcurrent recent times-- 1997. yeah. this is when you were in the-- the gem ofthe ocean-- the penultimate, which was the very first. (laughter) so-- you know, did-- did you recognizethese people? or-- or did you have to go searching for 'em? tonya pinkins:no, no, no. i think in all of august wilson's-- (noise)plays, you know these people. they're in your family.

(laughter) you know all the people in august'splays. and this play-- we've got somenew voices. we have the voices of the people who didn'tknow aunt esther, because she died in king hedley. so you're hearing some new voices that youdidn't hear in the earlier august-- wilson's plays. and in many ways, it's about those two songs,and how can they-- play in counter point. [onstage dialogue from radio golf] and harry-- so, you're running for officein the play-- or think you can— harry lenox:in real life too. (laughter) c'mon, ted.

no. no-- ab-- ab-- abs-- i'm runnin for the mayoraltyof pittsburgh. i think-- the-- august (noise) has reallycreated a meditation or a time. and the three aspects of time are the past,the present, and the future. how do we go into the future by forgettingour past? you can't. and i think that harmond (ph)--and the two people he comes into the play with-- his wife, maime (ph), and-- his bestfriend, roosevelt represent the present. and maime and roosevelt keep going into thefuture, but harmond gets (noise) stopped--

he gets arrested in his development, and realizesthat he cannot go forward without embracing the past. ted chapin:and do you think, "don't take any wooden nickels" is the l-- is the last--line for-- on which august-- (laughter) i mean, that's the last line of his last play,right? stephen mckinley henderson:yeah. of course it is. (laughter)(off-mic conversation) kenny leon:it's a very interesting moment. we've been playing with that moment as a very--complexed moment. you know, 'cause there's a lot a pain theretoo.

you have a-- 30 year friendship that you had. and-- and that's-- that's-- you know, (noise)dissipating. but i think he-- i think the characterhas nothing else to say. you know? he must do what he does, and roosevelt must walk out the door. but you know what i want is-- you know, i'venever had this opportunity to sit around a table with like-- these great, great actors,and we're not in rehearsal. (laughter) so-- what i wanna say is like--august write this-- this-- these beautiful plays. and not everyone can do august wilson plays.

not every black person-- or every black actorcan really do these roles. and i think we are lucky and fortunate tohave these talented people. and-- but it's challenging for a director. i've talked to phylicia-- she just directed. it's challenging some time whenyou have-- actors, and how do you get them all on the same page? but-- what's beautiful to me is like-- toknow that actors are capable of getting to the music of august wilson. as a director, if i don't think an actor iscapable of getting to the music, then i have

to make a change (noise) early on and-- (noise)replace that actor. but these actors-- they are talented(laughter) and gifted, and-- and they can get there. you know? they may all get there different ways, butit's beautiful to-- watch actors get there. and it's also painful to watch an actor whocan't get there with-- august's work. harry lenox:it's-- it's painful too-- i'm sure you know-- i'm sure that phylicia knows--and-- and stephen even more than i-- the-- particularly (noise) with the aunt estherthing, because that-- she represents-- all of us, for our entire sojourn here in theunited states. it's painful to be in it.

you know what i mean? like-- there-- there are times when (noise)you're doing a po-- when you're doing one of these characters that it hurts. and in order to-- to find the safety of beingable to inhabit these characters the way that august wilson demands-- he's a very challenging man-- stephen mckinley henderson:oh, yeah. harry lenox:--in real life. (off-mic conversation) stephen mckinley henderson: well-- you know, the-- the-- the

thing is too-- it's wonderful to appreciate the performances of other actors. i mean, what (noise) miss rashad did withaunt esther's-- i mean, it's just quite-- --it's good as it gets. and-- and i remember the experience,because i remember thinking about my-- aunt little (ph) down in oklahoma. and-- well-- how she taught how to put a smokepot out to keep the mosquitoes away. and to be on the porch and-- and-- and itwas like sittin at her feet again. and hearin that wisdom.

and-- and-- and that's what--august really gave us all. you-- you know? is that-- that-- to-- to see the very bestof yourselves-- and of your ancestors. and that's why i think what kenny's talkinabout-- i know ida (ph) was in the first class at the julliard school (ph)-- group one, and--felt a little culture shock, 'cause come from kansas city. and-- and-- and-- but i-- i loved doing work,but i didn't feel at home. i mean, i loved doin it. and loved being a-- (noise) exposed to-- to--to the classics.

but i didn't feel as at home. and-- time goes on when they come around. you know, and you realize that your journey--i really feel like my journey as an actor was to lead-- to work with august wilson. because-- if-- if you can do what they talkabout in radio golf-- if you can keep that sense of the anstress-- ancestry and the pride--and have it very little, but there's a pride there-- and also know that you-- you are aninheritor of all that there is that's here. that you don't have to take load from nothin. you know, you can-- you can-- everything that'sout there is yours to get.

but you don't have to let go ordeny anything to go and be a part of that new world. there was a time culturally-- in the theater--that i find-- that that-- that was the case-- that-- you know, you would be so struck bypeople who were-- being other than themselves in order to work in the american theater. but so-- (noise) i-- i just sit here and knowall these people who are at home in the classics. and they're at home in august. well, that's not theater. as lorraine hansbury (ph) wouldsay, things don't just happen. things happen just.

(laughter) you know? and-- and-- so, it's wonderful ta-- ta havethat-- ta-- ta-- to have your-- your journey vindicated. to have gone through whatever you've gonethrough in this business-- to go through all the changes-- to get to be in one of august'splays. you know? to get to be among the-- the family that celebrateshis-- to rejoice in him completing those 10 plays. it's a-- i mean, it really is. and-- and that's why i-- i-- i'mjust so glad to be here with this-- you know-- you-- 'cause you guys are doing some veryimportant work. and i can't wait to see it again.

i've seen it-- i saw it in-- in california,and i saw it in chicago. and i can't wait to see this one, 'cause--you know, it-- every step of the way-- with august-- you know, everybody that worked withhim-- you know-- every s-- kenny leon:always growing. stephen mckinley henderson:--always growing-- it's growing. it's-- it's-- it's becoming something. and-- so-- i-- i just rejoice in that he finishedthe 10 plays. and then i had a-- a-- incredible-- time withhim-- especially workin on jitney. the one that didn't go to broadway, (noise)which-- becomes a-- a badge of honor now.

(laughter) you know what i mean? there was a time all of us inthat show was like-- man, what-- what's goin on here? but now it's-- it's-- it's really-- and wedid get to go ta-- ta-- london and-- and-- and august got the olivier award (ph) for--for that show. but it-- it's-- to be in the familyof the actors here-- especially-- we were commenting about-- that roscoe (ph) just left us. (noise) and-- and ta-- ta see that-- you know,the struggle continues, as august would say. the struggle continues. [onstage dialogue from jitney]

ted chapin: why do you think jitney didn't come to broadway? stephen mckinley henderson:oh-- ted chapin:just-- happenstance? stephen mckinley henderson: --you know-- i-- i-- okay, now i don't wanna go too-- mystic on you here. (laughter) but-- but honestly, when i thinkabout it now-- (noise) had it gone, it would a mattered a year. so, you see, as i say, things don't just happen. it wasn't supposed to go.

ted chapin:yeah. stephen mckinley henderson: that's one answer. because-- because the timetablewas somebody else's timetable. you know what i'm saying? it wasn't our timetable. and as a stoolpigeon might say--you know-- god got a plan. so-- that's one answer to why it didn't go. because it wasn't supposed to. now what is a-- you know, the--the-- reasons and the other thing-- (noise)

you know, let's save that for somebody thatwants to write a book about it. (laughter) but just-- i'd love to be interviewedfor that book. but-- (noise) but-- but-- but really-- (noise)you know, it's-- it's-- it's just not as significant as the fact that he-- completed the-- theten. it-- it-- it always fascinates me when actors work with living-- playwrights--that-- and-- and something is therefore is new. i mean, i-- i respect that august didn't wannatalk to actors. but were-- any circumstances (noise) wherethere was something that bothered that-- you--

you, in the words? maybe they weren't-- you know, and-- and--what-- did you engage august in any conversation? or was he so-- extraordinary in w-- in-- inhis singularity that there really wasn't anything to be-- phylicia rashad: there was never a problem in thewords. harry lenox:mm-mm (negative). phylicia rashad:never a problem in the words. (noise) yes, the en-- the entire journey of--of my career was leading me to this-- exactly. and when i arrived in it, i thought-- ahh,this couldn't have happened before (noise)

this moment. i wouldn't have been ready forthis before now. (noise) being in an august wilson play-- wasa dream that i thought would never be realized for me, because-- for so many years, i wasviewed as a television actress. (noise) you know, whatever that means. people just don't pay attentionto the fact that you've developed yourself in theater-- that your training has been intheater, that all of your early years and-- and performance experience has been in theater. television actress.

(noise) so, i just thought that would neverhappen for me. and when it did-- i felt that-- okay, nowi've really arrived someplace. (noise) i'm really where-- i'm really someplace. the language, the words-- this is what i'mgetting to. (noise) i would sit back stage and listento other actors in performance. and all of a sudden-- i was hearing drums--talking drums. every character was a talking drum, and eachdrum had it's own rhythm. and they played together to createthis symphony of-- of-- of rhythm, and emotion, and sound.

and it was like riding the waves of a greatocean. it-- it-- it was exhilarating. it-- it-- it-- the language--his language-- all you have to do is pay attention to the text. (noise) not only will the text show you whereto go, the text will take you (noise) there. [onstage dialogue from gem of the ocean] (noise) never a problem with his language. harry lenox: but-- but the text demands a certain--it-- it-- it-- it presupposes a certain amount of capacity to do it.

like-- you know, kenny is always talking aboutacting on the (unintel)-- he's a tremendous director, by the way-- and-- all-- and-- andit's not just my opinion. (laughter) i think that-- (cough) that weall would concur that he is tapped into august's-- game plan. and-- and-- but to implement the language--that phyl-- the way that phylicia's talking-- you-- can see-- (laughter) i thought she wasgreat as a-- that's a-- but-- you-- you know-- but-- it-- it-- it requires a certain muscularity. the language itself is muscular. (noise) you have to develop a certain amountof physical aptitude to be able to carry this

thing off for the two and a half or threehours long that-- that we have to do it. and-- and so, there's a discipline involvedwith august wilson-- as everyone was talking about-- that it is sometimes painful-- itis sometimes physically, spiritually, emotionally-- painful. and you have to-- you know, you-- but youhave to have this great super structure that supports-- the emotional investment that youhave to take-- every night. and that it's-- it's-- not-- s-- it's notdiminimus (ph) at all. ted chapin:00:49:14:00 uh-hmm (affirm). it-- i'm fascinated by his-- his descriptionof the middle class and how-- and h-- and

how he-- i mean, he-- he clearly-- so muchobviously of what he wrote came from his background in-- in the-- in the hill district (ph) andin pittsburgh, and then his other-- ex-- experiences. but i'm fascinated by-- do you-- do you thinkhe speaks to african-american audiences? and if not-- d-- d-- i mean-- d-- are there--is there a way to-- to gr-- pull them in? do-- do they-- are they attracted to august'swork or do you have to go get 'em? stephen mckinley henderson:well-- you know-- only a certain amount of our population attends theater. okay? they-- they attend other art forms, but--i mean, a-- only a few.

so-- i guess-- what-- august speaks to thehuman spirit. he speaks to the capacity of the human spirit. harry lenox:yep. stephen mckinley henderson: and-- and-- (noise) and that's that the theater exists to reveal-- the capacity of the human spirit. some things crush us, some things we riseabove, some things-- you know. but-- i-- my favorite quote of august's issomething he wrote in the-- paris review (ph). it was an interview, and he said, "i sit downta-- ta-- ta write in the same chair that sophocles (ph) sat in, the same chair thatibsen (ph) sat in, the same chair that williams sat in.

miller sat in." and so, he-- he clearly was saying--he joins the fraternity of playwrights. so-- you know-- i mean, he's right. and-- as-- as todd-- pointed out in that other--interview-- he-- he wrote from his sense of the world. every write-- he write from his sense of theworld. he had this beautiful sense ofthe world. and it came from the hill district, and whenyou say m-- middle class-- you know-- at different points in a-- african-american's history,(noise) middle class was a-- a different-- economic figure.

you know? and it didn't have anything to do with college. (noise) being in the middle class had nothingto do with college in previous years. but in-- in-- radio golf, it'sthe first play that is occupied by college graduates. and the-- so, this-- this whole thing about--you know, how you see the world, and-- and-- what-- how much do you give up for that degree? how much do you give up to be a part of theintelligencia? and-- and so, what's the trade off? so, when-- when you can be a marriage of allthat-- when you-- you know, when you be-- 'cause here's-- august's experience was--was quite unique-- (laughter) in-- in terms

of playwrights. no, the-- in terms of the world of lettersand education, and so on, so forth. he got a high school from carnie library (ph). you know, the only one that they gave. (laughter) which-- i mean, there's not a studentthat we have in school today that wouldn't-- you know, be o-- maybe three days a week inthe library instead of in-- in a dangerous classroom. it might be very good for a lot of 'em. but-- so, i-- you know, i-- i--to me-- you know-- i mean, when you say what he wrote-- there's so many people who wouldcome and see jitney (noise) or come and see

joe turner's come and gone-- (noise) immigrants--you know, first generation in america from other countries. and they see joe turner, and say, "wow. that-- i understand. you know?" and get it. so, it's-- it-- and it goes and-- we-- werein london doin-- doin jitney, and-- and-- the asian people (noise) came who-- who werecab drivers, who would call and say, "yeah, yeah, yeah lon-- yeah, you know."

because he tapped the thing so pure that--you know, it's-- it's-- it's-- it-- it-- it talks to everybody-- but-- i think cruciallyimportant is that-- the people who didn't value themselves get to value themselves. and-- you can find out that what other peoplevalues you-- because they got a lot out of him. 00:52:33:00 but-- you know, you didn't-- valueyourself. so, that's what's so wonderful. and we did pittsburgh. when you go to pittsburgh and do an augustwilson play in pittsburgh, that like doing

shakespeare in stratford (ph). you gotta know your stuff, man. and-- and the-- the-- i w-- never forget playin--jitney in pittsburgh, and-- and that-- i had some gesture where i made fun of a guy. said, "yeah,, you know that-- that boy thatused to live down the street, that had that funny shaped head"-- something like that. august had written-- you know, that-- thathe allowed me to-- to-- to do this with. (noise) and after the show, thisguy comes up, he say, "that's my uncle, man." and-- with pride.

and-- 'cause there was a time that i'm surethat that was something that hurt that kid. and the-- and-- and-- one otherthing i'd love to say. tracy goldblum (ph)-- i don't know if you know her. but she-- she wa-- abram's agency (ph)-- herein to-- and her grandfather was doc goldblum. and august has doc goldblum in several ofthe plays-- he mentions his name-- doc goldblum. and he was a really-- real-- a real doctor. and he wa-- he was appreciated, because hewould come up and-- and-- and-- and do services for people in the hill for what they couldpay or a chicken or somethin. and-- and tracy-- goldblum always likes ta--ta-- ta go and see a play to see if-- if he's

gonna be in-- '50s or '40s or '30s-- you know,it's around in there. and-- that she said that at familygatherings-- you know, that they would sometimes say, "you-- you're not goin back up there, are you? you all come on stage, stay here for thismeal or something. and you don't get anything out of 'em." and he said, "oh, i do it." well-- see, august honors that contribution. and like the celic (ph) that's in both-- harry lenox: joe turner.

stephen mckinley henderson:00:54:03:00 --joe-- joe turner and gem of the ocean. he-- he-- he really does-- so-- i mean, it'sa human thing. it's a human thing. ted chapin:and he wrote great plays-- great parts for both men and women. tonya, i wanted to ask what it-- what's itlike being the only-- woman in-- in radio golf? tonya pinkins:(laughter) well-- (laughter) it's great havin all these men around me all (laughter)the time.

i think also she's the first professionalwoman that he-- he wrote. (noise) she's the first professional-- augustwilson character. and so, that's-- very specialto me, because i know for me coming to new york in the-- in-- when i came to new yorkin the '80s-- other people were writing black people, and they were writing their version of black people. and their version of black people wasn't whati knew, so i always felt fake-- playing the black people in white people's versions. a black-- you know like-- oh, you gotta sing gospel. i'm like-- i'm catholic.

(laughter) you know, i don't sing gospel. but no, that's what black people do, so youhave to do that. so, to come to an august play where the voicesare just-- you know, i know these people. it's my aunt. it's my uncle. it's just this incredible gift that he's givento african-american actors, that he's given to the theater. ted chapin:are there parts that you've played in different-- once of his-- p-- plays?

different parts-- i mean, in-- in-- differentroles and different plays? stephen mckinley henderson:yeah. well-- yeah, i-- you know-- (noise) differentparts of the country-- in buffalo (ph), i play-- say, troy (ph) and bineam (ph). and then in denver, i play bono (ph)-- youknow, who's-- who's-- you know-- depend on what market you're in. 'cause they're all just wonderfulroles, and you get to work with such wonderful actors when you get to do 'em. 'cause i know you played-- bono with my goodfriend, john cotherin, right? or--

kenny leon: no, i directed fences with john cotherin. stephen mckinley henderson:oh, you directed. but now you-- but you did some acting. kenny leon:i did citizen in gem of the ocean. stephen mckinley henderson:all right. kenny leon: i-- i created the role, but i didn't know i was gonna end up directing the play and then bringing it to broadway. stephen mckinley henderson: but-- yeah-- you know, it's wonderful to do the-- shows-- you know-- different places. and-- and what's really wonderful is-- like,i've done all the backyard plays. you know, august got backyard plays, (laughter)and he's got the-- the workplace plays.

you know, like-- where you in the jitney stationor you're in the restaurant or you're in the recording studio, or you're in the audience-- this is-- off--office-- this is the last work place play. so, you got four work place plays, right? and then three backyard plays, and-- and threeparlor plays or-- you know, living room plays. so-- you know-- it-- it's-- it'sa joy, but at-- but it was a point in-- the time he was writing-- that he always had children in. so-- that's-- also fascinating, because itgives them a chance to play like-- ruben and zonia (ph).

and also to get to play-- the daughter in--in piano lesson. maritha (ph)-- what's her-- what's her-- tonya pinkins: maritha. stephen mckinley henderson:maritha. and-- and-- and-- you know, and so, you getto play those-- that level of roles that you get to play the sterling's, and the youngblood's(ph), and the-- the reina's (ph), and-- and-- and-- reese's (ph). and then-- and-- and you get to play oldercharac-- so-- you know, you really do get to come (noise) all the way through.

it's just a-- incredible-- thing that he didwith those 10 plays. ted chapin:and it-- it's fascinating that there are so many characters that are relatedor are the same at different times. but it-- i-- i read somewhere that he tendedto start writing by writing a little dialogue, and then sort of figuring out who was sayingthe dialogue, and sort of growing out from there. which-- which is maybe why-- even though thisis a 10 play cycle, they're-- each one of them individual plays that have-- have theirown story to tell. kenny leon:he sorta let those characters speak. and-- you know, he doesn't take sides.

he just let them-- talk. and-- you know, he has seventy-seven characters(noise) in all of his plays-- com-- combined. and-- but just talk about ho-- the universalityof his plays. you know, i talked to some women from tel-aviv,and they're gonna do like-- three of his plays next year. and-- you know, at the kennedy center, we'regonna end up doin all 10. hopefully all these actors will join me inworking on those 10 plays at the kennedy center. but then you look around the country,you have-- culturally specific-- african-american theater companies like-- penumbra (ph), whoare doing his plays.

you have the larger theaters, like the goodmantheater (ph), and mark taper forum doin his plays. then you have commercial opportunities anddoin 'em on broadway. you know? august has introduced his plays to the world, and to many races. i saw ma rainey in south africa. (noise) you know? so-- he-- his plays is much more universalthan we-- (noise) sorta give him credit for. the man is the-- the godfather of-- of theater. harry lenox:that's an interesting too, kenny, at-- at-- in-- then-- that-- the plays, whichlive individually-- particularly-- they--

they-- ea-- each story is intact in and ofitself, but there is-- this intertextuality that happens. and that-- you know, i think in a lot of ways,august-- was on an artistic mission that einstein was on when he died-- which was to come upwith the grand unifying theory (noise) that would combine-- (noise) astrophysics and relativitywith-- with quantum mechanics. how do you make those two things work? and i think that august was--(noise) you know, was dealing with how do we make all of our history, and all of our presence,and all of our-- you know, how do we make all of those things fit together?

because that's really where we're trying togo as a people. and i think that as we, as a people go-- asan african-american people go-- we, as a nation, also go. there is a-- a connect-- an-- connectivityissue that has happened between-- african-america and america as a whole. and america's a whole with the rest of the world. and we all have to keep trying to find thecenter there where we have-- this common denominator. ted chapin:that's-- extremely well spoken. and i think that's a-- a wonderful-- way forus to end this conversation. i have to say that i think it is an indicative(noise) of how extraordinary passionate august

wilson's work is to have such extraordinarilypassionate people on this panel. i'd like to thank all of you for being here. the-- these programs are brought to you fromthe graduate center of the city university of new york (ph), with our partners cuny tv(ph). on behalf of the american theatre wing, thankyou for joining us for another addition of working in the theater.

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